# Re: [tlaplus] Re: Differences between TLA+ Specification and Property Based Testing

```On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 12:28 PM, Hillel Wayne <hwa...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Hi Andrew,
>
> I like to think I'm both reasonably familiar with both Hypothesis and TLA+,
> although TLA+ moreso, so hopefully I can speak to some of your questions. I
> think the main thing to understand here is that the diehard problem is (in
> my opinion) not quite the problem domain for Hypothesis.

Yes! It obviously seemed like a hack! But, then again, it's pretty
much the equivalent of your Hanoi example on learntla.com!

> Hypothesis is a kind of one level above standard unit testing. Instead of
> testing that an input matches an output, you test that for a range of
> inputs, all of the outputs have a property. For example, given imagine we
>
>     if not array:
>      return []
>     lesser = badsort([x for x in array if x < array[0]])
>     greater = badsort([x for x in array if x > array[0]])
>     return lesser + [array[0]] + greater
>
> We could write some unit tests that happily pass:
>
>
> When we use property-based testing, though, we ask "what are properties of
> the outputs that are true for all inputs?" One of them, for example, is that
> sorting a sorted list returns the original list. Another is that a sorted
> list has the same size as the original list. Here's how we'd write them in
> Hypothesis:
>
> from hypothesis import given, assume
> import hypothesis.strategies as st
>
> int_list = st.lists(st.integers())
> @given(int_list)
> def test_idempotent(numbers):
>
> @given(int_list)
> def test_preserves_length(numbers):
>
> The first property test passes, but the second test finds a counterexample:
> our invariant fails for [0, 0]! So the property found a bug in our code
> which corresponded to an edge case we didn't realize we should check.

Sure.

> On the other hand, TLA+ is a specification language. It's designed for
> building a model of your system outside of any particular code. You can't
> directly test your function with it, but you can test the algorithm your
> function implements. It's a little harder to give a toy example that clearly
> demonstrates why TLA+ is so powerful, but if you're interested I wrote an
> essay on how I've used it in production. And even that example is just at
> the PlusCal level; you can do much cooler stuff than I've done.

Yeah! Finding real world examples, and how to apply TLA+ to them is
difficult. The AWS paper talks about the benefits, but not the *what*
or *how*. I'll take a look at your essay, it's been in my queue for a
while to go back to now that I have a bit more understanding.

I think (hope?) that exposing myself to more examples of TLA+ will
help guide an intuition of *how* to use it for my day job. As Leslie
suggested (in his ongoing lecture series, I think?) TLA+ is a
different way of thinking, and I don't yet think that way.

> Hope that helps! I'd personally recommend using both TLA+ and PBT, because
> they're both really good at what they do.

Yes! I definitely am seeing this more and more to be the case, and
figuring out how to leverage both of them effectively... and then
convince others to do the same at work, will be an interesting

Cheers (and thanks for learntla.com, it's great!)

Andrew

> On Wednesday, 12 April 2017 04:04:03 UTC-5, Andrew Gwozdziewycz wrote:
>>
>> Hi Folks,
>>
>> First time poster, and newbie^1 to both TLA+ and property based testing
>> (PBT from here on out), generally. Recently, a blog post was published
>> solving the Die Hard 3 Jug problem in Hypothesis
>> (http://hypothesis.works)--a PBT library for Python. The fact that this was
>> so straightforward was rather shocking to me, I have to admit!
>>
>> It seems to me that the main advantage TLA+ / Pluscal has over PBT is the
>> assumption:
>>
>> 1. The Jug implementation in Hypothesis shows that for *some*
>> specifications, TLA+ and PBT are equivalent in what can be expressed /
>> specified / assured. Is this *generally* true?
>>
>> 2. I'm thinking that the concurrency support in TLA+ might also be a huge
>> advantage, but I think it's likely possible to simulate this in PBT, as
>> well. Is there anything special about TLA+'s concurrency modeling that
>> couldn't be replicated via PBT?
>>
>> 3. Generally, why should someone choose TLA+ over PBT? What other
>> advantages does TLA+ have over PBT?
>>
>> 4. I think it's the case that intuition on creating invariants and
>> properties for specifications / PBT tests, comes with experience. But, what
>> tips do y'all have for recognizing (learning to intuit) that these types of
>> specifications can have meaningful impact on code that I'm writing every day
>> (mostly around distributed systems monitoring, REST APIs)?
>>
>>
>> Andrew "Overjoyed by the potential of this stuff to make everything I
>> touch better" Gwozdziewycz
>>
>>
>> [^1]: Meaning, I've read the AWS paper, watched the Leslie Lamport lecture
>> series (1-3), the DrTLA Paxos lecture, and read through some specifications
>> in the tlaplus github repo. For both TLA+, and PBT, I have some clarity in
>> how I'd use it for testing certain types of algorithms, but have no clue yet
>> how to apply either to work I generally do.
>
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```